Episode 23, Talking South Carolina Podcast Part Two Interview with Brian Klauk, PE Director of the Carolina Crossroads Project Columbia, SC

Episode transcript:

Angela Barrett – “Yeah, that’s a lot. And I figured, you know, you see the people on the side of the road. And I guess some people think maybe not even put you in that. They’re just like, how’s working on the road again? And they think that small, but it’s not. I mean, it is massive. The amount of people that go into that one day of those people being on that road.”

Angela Barrett – “So let’s talk about. When the projected date for each of these projects phases, I’m sorry, or completed. So phase one started 21. Right?”

Brian Klauk “Right, right. Starting at 21. And both phases one and two will end about the same time, in the spring of next year. So second quarter of 25. And then we took what phase three was a large phase. And that was the one that we, selectively broke into smaller pieces. And so, the next one that’s going to come out is three B.”

Brian Klauk “I know it’s not a, but it’s three B. Your government, right, is 3 to 3 B is going to be a clearing and grubbing contract. So one of the things that we had to do, a malfunction junction, is to move the frontage roads out to make room for what we’re doing on the inside, to change ramps and loops and things.”

Brian Klauk “You don’t have enough room in order to move the frontage roads out. We actually have to move utilities. So we all know they’re buried utilities everywhere. But in this particular corridor, they’ve really grown up within what was built in the in the 1960s. And so their water lines, sewer lines, gas lines, fiber optic lines, other telecommunication lines, power lines that are all right, as close as they can be to frontage roads.”

Brian Klauk “And so okay, so we we kind of have to work our way out in order to work our way out. We need the trees removed. Okay. So that would have been what was first in what’s old three phase three. Now we’ve got 3A3B3C, 3D3E that folks can look at a map on a project website. But first thing is to, is to take down some trees.”

Brian Klauk “Now I love trees, but I have a love hate relationship with our friendly trees that are on along our roadways because trees happen to be the number one cause of fatal accidents, crashes in South Carolina. So as much as I don’t like to cut down a tree, sometimes we get we get the safety benefit of having those removed.”

Brian Klauk “We’ll get another benefit here. And that actually prepares the way for these utilities to begin to move out. So within the heart of Malfunction Junction, that cloverleaf 20 and 26, starting in January, folks will start to see trees being taken down. They’ll come down along Fernandina Road to Mill Road, right, that Saint Andrews interchange on 26.”

Brian Klauk “And then over by kind of chuck-e-cheese Browning Road and then, down Berry Hill Road and then or kind of all around. They’re moving towards Bush River road and eventually within the cloverleaf itself, the trees that are kind of in the middle, those will also come down.”

Angela Barrett – All of them.

Brian Klauk “Yeah. And so it’s oh God, I love that.”

Angela Barrett – Yeah.

Brian Klauk “About 170 acres of clearing. It’s going to be pretty dramatic. Gives us also better lines of sight. I don’t know if you’ve had this experience, but I have when I’m driving around some of these loops and I get to the end, I wish I had a little more line of sight. And so we’re, we’re going to be giving that.”

Brian Klauk “So again, as much as I, I mean, I, I used to work for the state park service. As much as I love trees and natural environment, in some places they’re they’re just not our friends in that moment. All right. So we’re going to be doing that, to make room for utilities to move out. And so people will start to see that, over about a year, calendar year period.”

Brian Klauk “So starting in January and ending a little bit after December of 25, you’ll see, trees come down and they shouldn’t impact, traveling public that much. We’ll do most of what we can during the day and we’ll give, you know, warning if there’s a, a temporary lane closure or things like that and then some interstate work will be done overnight.”

Brian Klauk “But only under temporary closures. Where, you may have 1 or 2 lanes open still at all times and maybe 1 or 2 lanes closed, but it will be overnight when the when the volume, the traffic volumes a lot lower. But that’s going to be significant when that is done is going to change the look. Now the the biggest thing that I want people to understand, and this is this is kind of strange to think about, but even though we’re clearing this now to prepare the way for the utilities to move, that doesn’t mean we’re fixing Malfunction junction right now.”

Angela Barrett – Right?

Brian Klauk “So that’s actually three E, which is is going to be, starting in 2030. So the the internal cloverleaf is 2030. That’s when that starts. So even though we’re clearing the trees in the cloverleaf, we’ll keep that mode. That’s not going to happen like the next day right. Replacing loop ramps.”

Angela Barrett – “Because you know and this is why I want to do this. Because this is such a massive project and an an interesting one. But it does take, like you said, the different phases or sections that and just to get to what we think, oh gosh, they’re going to fix that is five years down the road.”

Brian Klauk “That component. Yes it is. There’s so much preparatory work that that needs to be done. And if, you know, I this I’m going to ask for something that I don’t deserve. And that is the public’s patience. Right. I’m not saying I deserve it or that we as an agency deserve it, but we’ll bag it. There, knowing that we’re, we’re doing we’re doing this the right way.”

Angela Barrett – Right.

Brian Klauk “And and doing it the right way takes some time, right?”

Angela Barrett – “Yeah. Because it is a massive project. And when you break it down and you tell us, you know, you know, we kind of start with cutting the trees and then we got to move the power lines and the sewer lines and the gas lines. Holy moly. That’s probably going to take what just the just the utilities that will take what.”

Brian Klauk Yeah. That’ll take about three years. So that’s it. Yeah. That is the utility moves themselves and the is that’s that is three a.

Angela Barrett – Yeah that’s a massive project in and of itself.

Brian Klauk It is it’s a it’s over $100 million in and of itself.

Angela Barrett – “Yeah that’s that’s a big thing. All right. So we’re now what is so we’re in 2030, what happens after that component when I call the round and round? What happens after that?”

Brian Klauk “Yeah. So so let’s I’ll back up just a hair. Oh, right. And three B is done. Three A will be done by 2030. And then the one of the the one that we have under procurement right now is three C. That’s a that’s on I-20. It’s a new bridge over the Saluda River and a new bridge over a CSX railroad bridge.”

Brian Klauk “Most people don’t even see. We just kind of go over it. There’s a really important freight line, that runs right under I-20. Like, you can get a new bridge that and then a widening of I-20 that prepares the way for the cloverleaf interchange replacement. And then there will be phases four and five, which we’re putting together.”

Brian Klauk “And that connects, basically Piney Grove to exit 101 and I-26. So really we’re doing all the different arms of the project to then do the middle, kind of what everybody thinks is malfunction junction, right. That relief interchange that comes in that last phase, and that’s what starts in 2030. And then it’ll take approximately, 4 to 5 years for that to be complete and ribbon cut and we’re all done.”

Brian Klauk “Wow. So it is is a major investment in dollars, and it’s a major investment in time to.”

Angela Barrett – “So which brings me to another question. The the, what is the overall dollar figure projected? Yeah, because we all know things go awry sometimes. But what is the project of this total project? What do you think? Well, yeah, I think.”

Brian Klauk “$2.1 billion is the current program estimate now. And like I said, 90% of that is federally funded. Which is a great partnership. And the state brings that 10% in matching funds to it. But it’s a it’s a great way to, to leverage our, our, you know, road user fee, the gas tax towards our projects is that is to every dollar we spend, we get nine back from the federal government to do this massive project.”

Brian Klauk “That’s a fantastic. Yeah. We turn on local investment for me, right?”

Angela Barrett – “Yes, absolutely. Most of us would love to have that, ROA with us. So.”

Angela Barrett – “You you brought up something like people can will notify the public when there might be a lane change. Is, is that something that’s on the website that let’s just say so that, you know, doesn’t normally go downtown, they have to go downtown or they’re coming into town. They can go on the website and they can see these things or is that a Facebook or a social media of some sort?”

Angela Barrett – How is that done?

Brian Klauk “Yeah, it’s all the above. Okay, good. It’s all the above and more. So. Okay. Hannah’s group does a great job. If our Office of Public Engagement sending out press releases, we have Twitter x Facebook pages. We have a YouTube channel for the project. And then we also have a project specific website. It’s dot Carolina crossroads.com.”

Brian Klauk “All one word. And we have updates there. And then our road data services group within CDot does a great job working with all the GPS providers, Google Maps, Apple Maps, Waze, etc.. And so when you go on there, you can see actual, you know, if there’s any kind of closure. So right now we’ve got a ramp closure, in phase one that leads from downtown to Colonial Life Boulevard.”

Brian Klauk “It’s only a few days. And and when you drive it, you can see the, the signage and the you know, all the appropriate, speed limits and barrels and things like that, but your GPS will will know that that is closed. It’ll take you a different way. So we really are trying to coordinate, make sure that that folks have all the different ways they can get information because everybody gets it in a different way.”

Brian Klauk “Right? Sure. And, so we’re we’re really as a department and as a project specific, we’re really key in I trying to make sure that we get these the information that people, as best we can, however they receive it.”

Angela Barrett – “Right, right there is if you pay attention to those, you know, warnings, you need to go this way. I’ll give you an example. I could go with my eyes close to my parents home. This is about three hours away. On the way back, one day, I have my I think it was Google Maps. I don’t, I don’t remember the Waze or Google Maps what it was and said, you need to detour my again.”

Angela Barrett – “I can do this with my eyes closed. Yeah. There was a wreck and I was stuck on a bridge for about two hours, so pay attention. I mean, there is a reason they tell you that whether you know the roads or not, there is no way to get off a bridge, by the way, and turn around. So.”

Angela Barrett – “I think he told us that a big chunk of this and 2000, 30 and then the next big phase starts then, right? Yeah.”

Brian Klauk It has been broken.

Angela Barrett – Yeah.

Brian Klauk And that’s the last one.

Angela Barrett – Yeah.

Brian Klauk Yeah.

Angela Barrett – “And so we think we’ll have the ribbon cutting and hallelujah celebration. Somewhere was the year at this point, starting in 21. So 30. No, that can’t be.”

Brian Klauk “Yeah. 34 roughly 30 plus or minus. But yeah, it’s still as we continue to develop, we’re refining, and the outcomes of the, the prior phases will continue to influence the later phases. So you know, I would say it’s a it’s a soft 34. It could be 33 could possibly be 35, but 33, 34.”

Angela Barrett – “Gotcha. Aren’t you glad everything’s digitized now and that your aunt happens to keep banker’s box full of all these? I mean, how many years of paperwork? I’m sure there’s still a lot of it, but, I mean, at least a good bit of it probably can be, on a server somewhere that’s a good thing, for sure.”

Brian Klauk Absolutely. On a digital work.

Angela Barrett – “So, you are the project director for Carolina Crossroads, and, but can you give us a little update on all the roads, that were in South Carolina that were affected by that hurricane, up and just briefly, just for a second, have they completed a lot of that? That was damaged in the South Carolina area?”

Angela Barrett – “No, that’s what we’re speaking of.”

Brian Klauk “Sure. So I don’t work directly with those, but I give you a, kind of a general overview as you mentioned, most of the most of the damage was in the upstate. And our archer, my goodness, our neighbors to the north. It’s kind of unimaginable, right? It’s like it was like our 2015 flood and got an injection of terrible on top of a terrible right, right.”

Brian Klauk “So we’re working really hard that we had a number of bridges that were damaged, nowhere near like what happened in North Carolina, Tennessee. And our office, the office that I’m a part of is the office of Alternative Delivery inside NCDOT. And we’ve got our folks cranking out, bridge repair or replacement, projects as fast as we can go, to make sure that there’s, there’s bridges that were damaged and or damaged too severely to, to even remain opened, that they can replace as quickly as possible.”

Brian Klauk “So it’s, it does have some time associated with and there going to be some detours for a while, but we’re going to recover, and we’re doing it under an emergency program, which gives us special funding and timing and things like that. That helps us do it faster. But it’s it’s I wish it were tomorrow, but it’s not going to be, like a normal bridge replacement project as a, as a part of our normal life cycle.”

Brian Klauk So it’ll definitely be done faster than that.

Angela Barrett – “Yeah. Well, I, I know that wasn’t part of this, but thank you for that update because, I mean, it is still a big part of, you know, people traveling. And so, you know, just thought about ask and thank you for that answer. And that brings me to a question I forgot to ask earlier. Bridges. It’s always amazed me.”

Angela Barrett – “Tell me the process of how you I mean, you’re starting in the water in a lot of these houses. How does that work?”

Brian Klauk “Yes, because.”

Angela Barrett – Bridges.

Brian Klauk Yeah. As far as how you construct them.

Angela Barrett – Yeah.

Brian Klauk “Yeah. That’s with care, and a lot of planning. Right. The, the Saluda River that we cross twice with. Carolina Crossroads is a state designated scenic river. And it’s beautiful. A lot of it’s good. I, I’ve enjoyed it for, you know, decades where you go down there and you can walk some of these new greenway trails.”

Brian Klauk “We’ve got, you know, our, our, our trout, people who’ve fished there, we got folks who boat. We’ve got folks who tubing to. Yeah, exactly. Tubing, the kayaking, all the good stuff. Right. It’s clear it’s cool in the summer. It’s amazing. And so. Okay, now we’re going to build a bridge. All right? It’s not just that we span the whole river that is theoretically possible.”

Brian Klauk “That would be is just completely, cost prohibitive. So what can we do? And you see, as you drive down I-26, we’re building a bridge adjacent to the existing I-26 bridge. And what we’ve done is, is we work closely with, all the regulatory agencies and Dominion Energy, who’s the, you know, has the the Saluda River dam, the Lake Murray Dam, McMeekin dam is where we really call this, and we we work closely with them to make sure that we monitor water levels and all sorts of stuff.”

Brian Klauk “We one of the things that’s really important is we put barges in the river and there’s barges. Are fixed in place and we can do all the work either from barges or building towards each other from both ends. And what you wind up with is a, a relatively, I must say, clean, construction method that is very sensitive to the environment that we’ve got around us.”

Brian Klauk “And we do off those barges. What we did was we drilled, 7 to 8ft diameter shafts into the granite that is underneath the Saluda River. And then we filled that with, reinforced concrete. So it locks in place with the rock. And then that shaft comes up and those multiple shafts that we have that are, that are placed in line with the river current to not be a debris hazard.”

Brian Klauk “They they form the foundation for the bridges that we put in those in those, locations over the river. But then once we have those up or kind of almost like it’s like drying in a house where you get to that point where the the walls are up, the roof is on, and now I can start to work on the interior.”

Brian Klauk “So our entire year of sorts is the bridge joists and the deck where the traffic goes across. But that foundation work, that’s, that’s.”

Angela Barrett – “Turned into it really is amazing. Now, were there any, like, species, in the river that had to be, that are going to have to be moved or protected? There’s like there are in some of the other rivers.”

Brian Klauk “No, we’re I mean, we were cognizant of all the species that were there, but there are no fairly endangered species that we needed to avoid by our particular windows. We do have a a bat that is probably going to be listed that we’ve been doing a lot of, research out there on. And, and it looks like they’re not in this location, a particular kind of bat.”

Angela Barrett – That we’re protecting.

Brian Klauk “Yes, is probably going to become a federally protected, an endangered species, a little baby bats, the tri colored bat look cute. Okay. But, yeah, I, you know, for us, I one really interesting aspect is the Saluda River Canal, down there. And you may be familiar with it, it is actually right now a dry canal, but it was used, in centuries past for a trade to avoid the shoals and the rapids that we all enjoy.”

Brian Klauk “Now, for recreation. Well, that wasn’t so good for barges floating down the river. So there was a canal. It’s off to the side. It’s very close to what we have, a new, very long bridge in phase one. We we worked with the State Historic Preservation Office to fully delineate and then protect it. So everything we did was designed around it, away from it, and and all construction equipment was kept away from it so that it’s not, it wasn’t damaged, harmed or anything like.”

Angela Barrett – “Yeah. Well, good. I bring that up. My son, commercial diver, and he was with the Corps of Engineers, and I don’t remember what river now, but they were had to move muscles. Be glad that is not your project because you know how long it I mean they literally had to go down there handpick and put in basket mussels, put them on a barge.”

Angela Barrett – Those got it.

Brian Klauk For.

Angela Barrett – “For forever. But yeah but it was good. And he enjoyed it was a good experience. He loved working in that group. It was a bunch of scientists from the Corps, I guess, that were on the barges, picking out and identifying the different looks. Crazy. He sent me all these pictures. It was really wild. But that would have been another couple of years for us.”

Angela Barrett – “So glad we don’t have those. So what? I know it’s hard to see past this project. Carolina Crossroads, but what’s next is there we we got another project in the works, and we just got this.”

Brian Klauk “Yes. Oh, my goodness. There is NCDOT never stands still. Right. There is a, we have a plan, called momentum 2050 that is, is taking us to 2050 and beyond. I mean, really early on we have three major pinch points. I didn’t tell you what the third one was. The third one is I-5 26 at I-26 in North Charleston.”

Brian Klauk “Oh, nice. And that’s that interchange is is similar to Malfunction Junction. But as you go off on I-5 26, it’s only two lanes in each direction. For most of its reach that we all know how much Charleston’s growing, is tremendous. And that that project’s already in the works in the planning stage. So it is kind of the next big thing.”

Brian Klauk “But that is not at all the only thing that that, CDot is pursuing. So we have 8000 bridges in our inventory, across the state. And there are a good number of those that are, needing replacement repair that’s always ongoing. And then in every single region of the state, we’re working with local elected officials and planners, always.”

Brian Klauk “And we always have a, a slate of needs and desires and, and projects that are either in design or they’re getting ready to be built or they are being built right now. So we have a tremendous program. Working with our federal partners and our local partners to always be improving and maintaining the system we have in the state.”

Angela Barrett – “Yeah, because our roads, I mean, there’s a lot of us on it. And, they get abused. I mean, just the every day care and wear and tear. I mean, that’s that’s obvious. And, it’s this big job for y’all to keep up with all that. But we’re grateful for what you do. And I’m glad that you explained, kind of broke it down and now people can go on the website and look at the map and look at this, but sometimes it just I think people, riding in their car can listen and go, oh, well, that makes more sense.”

Angela Barrett – “I’m glad you explained it. So thank you very much. I know I had another question, but for the life of me, I cannot think of it. So I’m sure as soon as we end, I will think of it, but that’s okay. But thank you so much for being here today. I’ve, thoroughly enjoyed it.”

Brian Klauk “Yeah, it has been my pleasure. Thanks for having us on.”

Angela Barrett – Absolutely. Thanks so much.