Episode 22, Talking South Carolina Podcast Part One Interview with Brian Klauk, PE Director of the Carolina Crossroads Project Columbia, SC

Episode transcript:

Angela Barrett – “Hey, Brian, thanks so much for being with me today. And agreeing to do this, I am excited. I have been, I think we’ve been hounding Hannah. Your right hand man, there, for a while now, trying to get you all here.”

Brian Klauk “Angela, thanks for having me on.”

Angela Barrett – “Absolutely. So let’s talk about what we have always known as Malfunction Junction. In Colombia and what is now called, Carolina Crossroads. Tell me one how this project came to be. I mean, what was the reasoning that this got started?”

Brian Klauk “Sure. You know, Carolina Crossroads had its genesis really decades ago. I whenever I think about it, I think how kind of amazing this interchange is when it functions. Well and and how much it struggles when it it does it function well. We, as CDot have known for years and years that it has some significant challenges and it’s always been one of really three major pinch points in the state along I-26 and, I-35 that we wanted to relieve.”

Brian Klauk “And so one of them is done, I 85 that I-85 up at Greenville that and now we’re on the second one and that is Malfunction Junction. I mean, let’s just call it as as the public does. And what we’re really trying to do is to fix it in such a way where we earn a new name.”

Angela Barrett – “That’s that one, right?”

Brian Klauk Project.

Angela Barrett – Right?

Brian Klauk “Yeah. We call it Project Carolina Crossroads. You know, now, but I don’t. It needs to earn it. Yeah. So we want it to be there. Malfunction junction is a thing of the past, right?”

Angela Barrett – “Yeah. It’ll take a while, though, because, I mean, my whole life. That’s what I mean. As long as I’ve lived in Columbia, at least, that’s what it’s been. So that’ll take a while, but we’ll work on that. And so when did. So you knew it had to be. And for decades you have known this. But when did the pen hit the paper?”

Angela Barrett – “And say, let’s start?”

Brian Klauk “Yeah. Back in the early 20 tens. We convened, a group to look at. Would there be something that we could do? That’s a relatively low cost, but a high impact change. And so we took, at least a year really more to, to do in-depth studies on that. And, and we finally got to the end of it.”

Brian Klauk “It was. Yes, there are some things we could do, but to really make significant improvements to congestion and to safety, it really needed an overhaul. Yeah. And so in 2014, NCDOT hired an engineering company to to develop an environmental impact statement and a preliminary design. And that step would take us to what we would consider, you’ve heard that term shovel ready.”

Brian Klauk “And so if the funding ever appeared or was designated, then we could we be ready to take action. So starting in 2014, I got involved in the project in 2015 as the project manager. So starting in 2014 and 15, we developed that environmental impact statement. So we had our first public meeting in 2015, and then we continued to have meetings and do a ton of preliminary engineering design, public involvement, environmental screening and other work.”

Brian Klauk “That was all the background to where we got to 2019. And in May of 2019, we got the what’s the technical term is a record of decision for our final environmental impact statement. And that was basically the the Federal Highway administration’s, seal of approval and said, you guys did all the right stuff. Your design will work and you can move forward with actual construction.”

Brian Klauk “And so and to make this just a tad more complicated, kind of in the middle of that, that funding that we always had one to plan for really materialized through a variety of sources. And sort of our, our dream to fix it, to be shovel ready became a reality as we were becoming shovel ready. So it was a great opportunity to just kind of things lined up right.”

Brian Klauk So it was it was not only the right time to fix it. We had the money to do it.

Angela Barrett – “Yeah. That helps. So. When was the, I’m going to say first day but roundabout that the first shovel went in.”

Brian Klauk “Yeah. November 8th, 2021. Yeah. You was the was the the groundbreaking.”

Angela Barrett – And so that started what I consider between on 26. But going into downtown Columbia. It started in that span between 20 and downtown right.

Brian Klauk Yeah. That’s a stretch. Yeah. And we call that phase one. Okay. Centered along Colonial Life Boulevard. At I-1 26. And there’s a that’s sort of one segment. The other segment reaches from there across the Saluda River and goes towards us. 378 and widens there in preparation for some other work that’s coming in later phases.

Angela Barrett – “Right. So, yeah, that looks totally different. If the first time I drove from downtown backwards to 20 at night, I thought, am I on the right road? Did this just go somewhere I, you know, it really looks that different. And I know it will continue to get that way. So what phase are we in now?”

Brian Klauk “Great. So we’re we’ve got two phases that are under construction and almost complete. So phases one and two are going on that same time. They both should be complete in the spring. You know, we can’t really pave a lot the final surface during the winter cold months. So some of the work that we could do in this month, January, February, it’s got to wait until, like later March and April.”

Angela Barrett – “Is our northern friends laugh at us about our cold. But yes, I get it.”

Brian Klauk “That’s so true. As we. So yeah, we’ve got phases one and two under construction right now, and phase two is over by broad River road at I-20. So it’s it’s separated from phase one. So as folks drive, you know, along I-20, maybe going towards the beach towards Florence, they’ll see that work. That’s right at the broad River and right at broader river road.”

Brian Klauk “It’s a completely new interchange, completely new type. And it’s really going to relieve a lot of that congestion on broad of road trying to get onto I-20, especially in the mornings, going eastbound.”

Angela Barrett – “Okay. So that brings me to my next question. Tell me the scope. What area? Give me a, you know, a picture of where all this is going to cover. Where are we covering?”

Brian Klauk “This is a it’s a massive project. It’s 14 miles worth of interstate. So it’s predominantly centered on I-26 is the spine. And it goes from exit 101, which is Lake Murray Boulevard of removed. And it goes all the way down to almost to 378, like right at, Lexington Hospital. That’s the I 26 piece. And then we have an I-20 piece that’s from the broad River in the east, over towards, U.S. 378 again, but this time on I-20, almost a 378.”

Brian Klauk “So it goes across the river. And then we have that little piece that you mentioned of I 126 about a mile or so, from the western end of I 126 aiming towards downtown. So altogether it’s those 14 miles that comprise not not just Malfunction Junction as people like to talk about it, but really those those aspects that lead up to it, and feed it and disperse traffic from there.”

Brian Klauk “So there’s it’s not just the center hub, it’s really a solution to fixing all these, all the destination points that are local to make sure it feeds right into the next state. You know, the next piece of interstate that takes you to all the other places you want to go, right?”

Angela Barrett – “So and this is still see this car as the center though of the court. And, you know, the center of this whole project, because that’s that really is that piece that was out of whack. I’ll leave it like that. It just, you know, no matter which way you were getting all for coming on, it seemed to be a mess, especially at your high traffic times.”

Angela Barrett – “You know, everybody’s going to work. Coming home from work. So that source be, you know, the middle of the web, I guess I would say, in layman’s terms, so help, help everybody understand because, you know, there’s either like ten years, this is going to take ten years. There’s a lot that goes I mean, it took how many years to get this.”

Angela Barrett – “Like you said, the first shovel in the ground. We have to worry about everybody’s safety. So we know that. So tell everybody why this takes this long. What?”

Brian Klauk “Love this. Yeah, I love this question.”

Angela Barrett – I’m sure you can get it a lot.

Brian Klauk “I do, and it’s it’s the right question. When when do I want malfunction junction fixed 20 years ago. Right? Right. Was. What’s the next best thing is as soon as we can. And it has to be as soon as we can safely. So I like in a project like this because traffic has to continue to drive through here.”

Brian Klauk “It’s like you’re cooking Thanksgiving dinner while having a renovation, going on your kitchen at the same time.”

Angela Barrett – Yes.

Brian Klauk “And so it’s challenging. And then not only that, but the folks who are cooking dinner are driving through. It’s 60 miles an hour. So, it takes a tremendous amount of coordination to make sure that traffic can continue to flow through at the same time as we’re making a $2 billion investment in improving this interchange. So that’s that’s the big challenge.”

Brian Klauk “That’s one of the two reasons why transportation, big transportation projects take a long time. The other reason is there is, by law and by Scott’s own desire, a tremendous amount of public input, and advance work that we do to make sure that when we do something this big, it’s the right solution and it’s done the right way.”

Brian Klauk “And, you know, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, right? So the only problem with an ounce of prevention is sometimes it takes a while to, to develop. So so here we are. And and those are the two biggest reasons why major transportation projects, they take a lot of long time to mature and to deliver on the ground.”

Angela Barrett – “But ten years, that’s a long time.”

Brian Klauk It it’s it is.

Angela Barrett – Go ahead.

Brian Klauk “Well, I you know, the some of the other things are project specific is that, in order to get the best deal for the taxpayer, we needed to break up this project into smaller chunks. We we are not building this ourselves, as most people know. Most highway projects are actually constructed by the private sector. And a lot of times they’re designed by private sector engineering firms like this one.”

Brian Klauk “And when when you do that, the private sector can do a couple things. They can bring their best price by competition, and they can bring and enhance design. So we’re doing some special procurement. I don’t get in too much detail, but really what we’re allowing the private sector dues to build is a better mousetrap. So we did this preliminary engineering and the the private sector takes it to the next step.”

Brian Klauk “But what we need to do to ensure to get that best price and the best competition is that we had to make it into smaller pieces and, and break this whole 14 miles up into now quite a few pieces. And that’s going to allow more competition when these projects get enormous. There are only a few players who are capable and and willing on each project to to place a bid or to pursue it.”

Brian Klauk “And so with that limited pool, then the competition’s a little more limited, and it’s just not the best deal. So by breaking it up, we wind up with a better deal on each individual piece. And then the other, the benefit of that is not only a financial benefit to the taxpayer, but it’s also that, that benefit where we get incremental improvement.”

Brian Klauk “So with each piece we do, you get a benefit that helps this traffic congestion relieve itself.”

Angela Barrett – “You spend off a whole lot more questions for me. So I’ll start with the first let’s talk about the players that are involved. And you don’t have to name names as far as people, but the types of industries, because, like you said, you’ve got the engineering firm and then you’ve got you guys, obviously, who are the other players in this massive project.”

Brian Klauk “Yeah, it takes a lot of different folks. So to actually deliver, we are working underneath the Federal Highway Administration and they’re part of us Department of Transportation. They have, responsible care of the Interstate Highway System writ large. And so everything we do has to fit within all of their parameters, all their criteria. And the benefit is two benefits.”

Brian Klauk “One, that’s the only way you could do a highway interstate project. And two, it’s this is 90% federally funded. So they are, absolutely critical partner in bringing this to bear. And they’ve been great to work with. And we we continue to work with them as we’re moving forward. Then you have each of the individual prime contractors that does that.”

Brian Klauk “That is, they’re responsible. Constructor for each phase. And those contractors have lots of subs, lots of subcontractors that do specialty work. And then among those, there’s also material suppliers. If you can imagine the amount of material that winds up concrete, steel, asphalt and asphalt made of aggregate and asphalt cement, which is the tarry black stuff that holds all the oxygen sand together that makes up asphalt.”

Brian Klauk “It is a an enormous amount. Haulers, and they’re, they’re pulled from all over the place, some local, some a little distant. And you end up with some specialty folks that do things even we had people come in from Florida subcontractors to, to tie rebar together on bridge decks. It just it takes a tremendous amount of folks.”

Brian Klauk “We’ve had at least 500 different professionals, working engineers and scientists on the front end. And you know, a tremendous number, hundreds of contractors, folks working on the back end, actually doing it, the work. And then there will be more. So we estimate about 1300 jobs will be created through the whole, kind of from here to the end of Carolina Crossroads, as it’s built with about an $860 million influx to the local economy.”